Epsiode 110 - Stewardship, Wealth & Generosity: A Catholic Approach to Money - With Chris McMahon

Is wealth compatible with holiness? In this inspiring conversation, Paul sits down with Christopher McMahon—CEO of Aquinas Wealth Advisors and author of Faithful Finances—to explore what it really means to approach money through a Catholic lens. Together they unpack the difference between worldly riches and true abundance, how stewardship shapes our financial decisions, and why generosity is central to living a fully Christian life. If you're seeking clarity, peace, and purpose in the way you handle money, this episode will guide you toward a more faithful and intentional financial path. 

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Paul, Welcome to Catholic money talk, where we talk about all things money and finance, and we try to do it through a lens of being Catholic, where our ultimate goal is to one day be in Heaven with the Lord. I am your host. Paul Scarfone, thank you for being here today. Welcome back to Catholic money talk. Today. I'm joined by Chris McMahon. Chris is the CEO of Aquinas advisors and author of fine faithful finances. Six steps to establishing a Catholic financial life. He's dedicated to helping individuals, families and institutions align their faith and finance. So welcome Chris to the show, Paul, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be part of this. So thanks, awesome. So today we're going to talk about a Catholic perspective on investing in wealth building. But before we do that, let's say a prayer in the name of the Father and of the Son of the Holy Spirit. Amen, Heavenly Father. We thank you for this day. We thank you for all the ways that you love and bless us. Lord. We know that you have an awesome plan for us. Just send your Holy Spirit to fill us with hope, with great peace and with the desire to follow You. Lord, we ask this all in Jesus, name, amen, name of the Father Son, Holy Spirit. Amen. So, so this is exciting. Thank you, Chris, for being here again. I'm glad. I'm excited to talk a little bit and spend some time with you. You know, I sent you a couple of those questions that I thought my listeners would be most intrigued to kind of hear some responses other than my own perspective sometimes on these but one, the one I want to start with, is one that comes up fairly regularly, especially for, I'd say, mature families, you know, kids that are grown, and parents that are coming out of that survival mode from young kids, and they're starting to look ahead, going, wow. What do I need to do to kind of set my family up well for the future? And I think that families have to choose between financial growth. They also have to have that balance of trusting in the Lord. And you know, it's, it's, how much do I have to do and how much do I make room for the Lord so that I'm not putting my own security in just the finances, but there's still my part that I have to do as well. So how do you help families and couples kind of balance that and navigate that? Yeah, that's the balancing act, right? The practicalities of having appropriate money, being good stewards the gifts God's given us, right, and then at the same time, making sure that we can pay for the groceries and send everybody to college, and hopefully, pass, you know, pass something on or done. But also, I think even in addition to that, too, we're talking a lot about stewardship. What are we going to do? You know, as Catholic folks, when they're younger, their main concern is generally setting up a family and starting to make sure we, you know, we're not a burden to the system and make sure we're, you know, at least, to the very least, kind of able to support ourselves and our family and but at some point, Catholic leaders have to start thinking about, how do I also then support those ministries which advance God's kingdom on earth? I don't think we've talked enough about that in general, Paul, that it's really the responsibility of you know, this, the this various tiers I talk about in the book, right? There's the the people just starting out, and how many, how many great, you know, focus ministers, husbands and wives are. They're struggling to or or youth ministers their church. They're doing great things, but it's just not realistic for them. We're hopefully we're gonna get up to a place where they have a budget, they live within their means. They're able to save a little something. But then beyond that, those folks that have done the opposite, right, where they've gone out and they've built a career, and maybe sometimes they've been kind of engaged in their faith all along, or maybe they just came up for air at some point. I think, if I remember correctly, Paul, don't you guys have six children in my correct County? Yeah, so I we Molly, and I have five grown children, and they took we were just at a place where we couldn't breathe for a while, and financially or emotionally, anything, right? And when we came up there, we said, Okay, now that we've been blessed a little bit, what's our responsibility related to helping continue to advance, you know, these important initiatives? So it's all of those things. It's right, making sure we have enough money to we're prudent. You know, with the gifts God's given us, we save them appropriately. We some. We don't forget about advancing God's Kingdom at that same time. I think that's the rub. The great news is, with planning, we can accomplish all those things for sure. Yeah, no, it's funny. You talk, you talk about saving and planning for the future. There's, you know, one of the questions I had for you that I sent you, and this is probably one of those myths that floats around Catholic circles, even Christian circles, this idea that sometimes maybe being poor seems like it's closer to holiness than people have wealth, where it could be a spiritual obstacle. And we hear. You know, it's easier for a camel into the eye of a needle than a rich man to go to heaven. And so how do you kind of interpret that in the, you know, the light of the gospel, the Church's teachings on, you know, stewardship, generosity and also wealth building. That's a great balancing act. Because, you know, the is it the prosperity gospel says, just make as much as much as you can. And it's, it's, it's wonderful, right? And there's no, there's really kind of No, no limit on what we can do. I would say this, I think there, there's a balance there. I don't think there's an inherent nobility to poverty. I think sometimes we really, you know, in today's world, I think we have to do the best with we're entrusted with gifts from God, and one of those gifts is we have an ability to have an ability to, you know, amass or to create wealth and create think about, I mean, I think about some of the successful Catholic business owners that I know that are able to employ, you know, many may build enterprises that employ people that You know, support families that then in turn support, you know, these critical churches, diocese, ministries, whatever it is that, I think, on its face, we have a tendency, I think, to say there is a certain implied nobility and poverty, you know, like the is that you're closer to God, if you will. I'm not sure that I completely aligned that I think in general, it's more about, are we being good stewards what we've been given? Because the, you know, the person who, through some lack of, you know, really fully embracing their gifts has has kind of settled, if you will, for a lot, you know, for a for settled for, you know, a lane that may be less economically rewarding. I don't think on their faces necessarily, any more, you know, any more noble or closer to Gods. I've been involved in a number of these organizations. I was extremely involved with goddess, which was a great organization. I was lucky enough to be the vice chair for about eight years, and and I saw people all across the country that were probably some of the most successful folks I never met, and I also saw them close to God. And then, you know, when we go to Mexico City, Mom and I go, we're very involved with the Sisters of Mary down in Mexico City and the world villages of children. I don't know if you've been down there, but it's an amazing trip. I'd encourage anybody to go. But, but anyway, when we go down there and we see these kids that are just absolutely magnificent, and it brought out of object poverty, also incredibly close to, you know, Our Lady and to God. And it's amazing to see that. So I think it's more about what we do with the gifts we're given in the in the situation we're in. And the good news is, there's room for all of us, right? And there's room for all there's room for all of us in Christ's, you know, circle for sure. Yeah, and, you know, it's, it's funny. I think the, you know, the way I look at this question myself is we think of, where are we putting our trust, right? Is it in the financial resources that we have, or do we actually put our our trust in in the Lord, right, and faith in God. And you know, one of my favorite stories about this from the Bible, there's two of them, because they both talk about bigger barns. The one is the foolish man who has the huge harvest, and he builds a big barn. He puts all his money in it, he goes, now I don't have to worry about anything else. You know, I'm good, I'm good. And then, you know, Lord in the parable says, You idiot, tonight your life will be taken from you. The one I like about bigger barns, and one of my favorite stories about wealth building is Joseph in the Old Testament, right when he interprets Pharaoh's dreams, and he says, You're going to have, you know, seven years of Great Harvest followed by seven years of famine. So save up while you can right and, and, you know, because, because that's great, because I think for many of us in our own life, and what I try to help people with when I'm coaching them is, are they in a season of famine, or are they in a season of harvest, and what should they be doing with it? Because, and I was as I was getting ready for our conversation this morning, one of my favorite proverbs. If you read the book of Proverbs, you'll have like an MBA in business and finance, right? There's so much wisdom in there. There's a lot in there. Yeah? Proverbs, 2120 precious treasure and oil are in a wise man's dwelling, but a foolish man devours it, right? A foolish man consumes everything he has. So you know that that's my perspective. I would love to hear kind of your take on my little my little Bible references here, where, you know, because I think it's a very clear direction for us, like it's good to save to the word you said, prudent, like being prudent. And I think there's also, there's a difference between being poor and living simply, right? And in my mind, living simply is just not consuming everything you have, right? Making space for generosity and giving, because it doesn't belong to us, right? It doesn't belong to us. I agree with you completely. I think that's what we talk about all the time. We it's important to NO MATTER WHAT WE'RE IN THE. Set aside something for savings. But when we work with young people and people starting out, we say, What do I have to do? So the first thing you have to do is take some small percentage, whatever it may be, right? Allocate some of your time and some of your resources to someone who's less fortunate you are. You know, I talk to people all the time that have millions of dollars saved, and they'll and some will say, I have to give more away, right? And I talk to people all the time, Paul that will tell me, we, as we gave it away, that's where we created our wealth, which is interesting, the more I gave, the more I was rewarded back. And then I, of course, I had to give more away, right? Yeah, beautiful cycle. And it's really incredibly inspiring when you meet these people and say, My goals are to, you know, get as many to people to heaven as possible, right? It's not the goal. That's what this whole thing's about. So how do we do that? Right? And some of that, some of that, you know, with some of the fruits of prudent planning, allow you to help in that way, right? Which is beautiful. You can help folks. There's so many wonderful ministries going on around the country. It's incredible. And to be able to kind of support with time and with financial resources is wonderful, but you're exactly right. It is that balancing act, because we don't want to hoard that, you know, we don't want to, you know, I don't want six barns full of, you know, whatever is wheat or whatever the heck I came over the crop, yeah? Well, just treasure. Yeah, six barns full of treasure. And then you'll say to some folks, well, you know, we What are you giving? You know, it's important to give some of that away. And they're just, they don't even, doesn't understand that. There's no capacity to understand that, right? And, you know, and that goes back to what, you know, when did we feed you, right? When do we clothe you, right? When you did to the least of us. So, I mean, he's pretty clear. I think he's pretty instructive to all of us that we have to help the the most you know, the folks below us, and pull the folks up below us and and give them a hand up and certainly help. And I think some of us have lost our way there, Paul, even folks that are by some by some means, by some apparently, aligned with the teachings of the Church. We've just kind of blocked that out, put blinders on and say, Well, that isn't for me. I'm in the middle of building my own pile. And I think it's very important for folks, when they're building their own pile that they have to say, okay, am I going to have enough? But there's always room for some element of helping those below us. And I think that's extraordinarily important blows financially I'm talking about, of course, but I think if we can help those folks, two things happen. First of all, we're doing what we were instructed by God Almighty. And secondly, we are ultimately going to be rewarded by because the by far the most successful people I've seen, the most, people I admire the most, are the ones that have given the most away. It's amazing. Generous. People are very attractive, like and and I feel like they relationships gravitate to them. Opportunities gravitate to them because they're attractive. And it's that generosity. And I heard in a talk, once you know this idea that we're made in God's image and likeness. We know that, right? We're made in God's image like this. And He is the Most Generous, right? He gave us his only son, and so he's a giver. And for us, there's only three things we can do with money, save, spend and give. And giving the thing giving, it makes us most like our Heavenly Father, which brings us most joy. And to your point, it doesn't matter, like in my own life, and I've shared this on previous episodes, but like when my wife and I, my wife Taryn and I, when we started kind of getting, well, when we started our marriage, we weren't giving because we felt like we just didn't have enough. We were like, once we have extra, we'll give that. And with that mindset, we never had extra and then finally, when we hit that kind of conversion moment on our finances, we said, Whoa, we're doing this all wrong. We have to give first, and then we can kind of live. And that changed everything. And to your point, it felt like things took off. And it's not because God was waiting for us like we passed some magical test. He had been helping us grow along the way, but we just couldn't experience the benefit and the grace and the blessings of being able to help others around us and to be generous. And to your point, there's stories of poor families in third world countries that all they have is a bowl of rice that can't even feed their family, and they'll still take half that rice and give it to their neighbor. Absolutely. Think about that, you know, and then we're worried about saying, Oh, I don't know if I can peel off $100 or spit $25 a paycheck. And I can assure you one thing, Paul, everybody can do it, especially as we come into this time of year, because January is coming, and normally that means some little tweak in our compensation. And we say to people all the time, start, start your stewardship as painlessly as possible. Maybe you've even just taken half of that pay increase. Let's say it's a 3% pay increase, and we take 1% of it, or one and a half percent of the pay increase, and on a monthly basis, we just kind of take it out ahead of time. You know, take it out of the build it in. Because if you build it in, it's a little. Well, it's always a little painful, right? But, you know, it's, it's, I think it can be as painless as possible when it's built in, and then slowly, you know, we always say, you know, just take a little one step at a time. Because we talked about that a lot in my book. We talked about the fact that to have a brilliant philanthropy plan, you know, is sometimes overwhelming, and our faith aligned investment and financial plan. But if you do that all together, you do it kind of one step at a time, particularly around philanthropy, you can really have the rewards. And I think it's a combination. I do think we let ourselves off the hook sometimes, because we say no, no, I give my time, you know. And I'll say to some of my friends and that, you know, it's funny, so I'll say this to my friend, so what are you doing, you know? What? What are you doing to, you know, help others, unless the one guy, you know, you know, one guy, will say to me, you know, I'm real, I'm real involved in this committee. And I said, Wow, okay, what are the committees like, the planning commission, great. How often do they, what does that? What does that entail? Well, I mean, once a quarter we get together, we do a zoom, once a quarter, and we we really knock out our planning strategy for the year. And I'm like, well, that's okay, but you probably have a little more capacity. Yeah, we all have more capacity than we think, and I think it's good to pick role models that we think are really doing it the right way and aspire to be like this. And there's so much great content out there now with, you know, all the conferences, and there's what, there's the Zoom stuff, and you know, great podcasts like yours, where people can really find the people that resonate with them and, frankly, model their behavior after them, which is beautiful, yeah. And I think it's key to take action like it's it's on us. We've got to participate. We got to be part of it. Sometimes I get frustrated by hearing people, you know, reference, maybe there needs to be, you know, a program or some regulation that helps to help these people. It's like, No, you go help those people. Start there, you know, and be that example for other people. I always say, you know, like, I'm sorry, Paul, I would say to people all the time, they'll say, What do I do? You know, I'm sure it happens to you as your leader. People come to me and they'll say, What am I supposed I supposed to do? I'm disconnected from the faith. I'm disconnected from the church. I'm not really doing anything, you know, and I don't know. I just one of my goals is to become more engaged. And, you know, always say the same thing also, today is what today's I think we're doing. It's Tuesday, right? So on Wednesday morning, we're going to go down to the to the red door here in Pittsburgh and hand out sandwiches. Come with us. Hand a hand a guy, you know, somebody who's hungry a sandwich. And that just opens up everything to a person, right? And then the next thing you know, two years later, they're starting ministries, and, you know, raising money. And it's really exciting to see as people get turned on, how this, it's inherent in all of us, right? The need to help and to want to, oh yeah, be part of the solution. And it's beautiful, and a lot of people just don't see a pathway. And there's also this kind of shame, this weird thing we carry around, especially as we get a little longer in the tooth, where we think to ourselves, I don't want to look foolish, so I'm nervous about engaging in something new or making I don't want to be in a position where I look vulnerable. And I think we have to just say, look, it's who cares. You know, people say to me all the time, Paul and these various things, I do, you know, well, I'm not sure if I want to do this, because I'm not sure this is sustainable, you know. And I always I say, well, that's, you know, the word sustainability, to a large degree, is used by people that don't want to accomplish anything, you know, I said Lena, as I said, let's start today. And if we if it works today, and you know, that means there's one less hungry person at least today. So if it doesn't work for we can think of a million reasons seven years now, this may not be here, but how about all the people we fed in the last six years? Right? And I think that's a good way to just be vulnerable, be be open, to say, if it fails, it fails, and just give it a shot. And if that's not what you want to do, start something. There's a million things to join at your church or your you know, wherever it is, so for sure, well. And you know what I try to remind people too, is it's not about like, how much or what, what we're giving towards or, you know, where it is, it's really about the the disposition of our hearts, right at the end of the day, that's what we get. Like, why were we helping other people? Because you could do a lot of great good, but if you're doing it for yourself, to have, you know, recognition, like, it's, it's, it's, it's going the opposite way for you, you know, but having that, you know, the disposition of the heart to like, Lord, how can I serve? Use me? You know, it's, it's, is the is the key. So, you know, we're encouraging people, hey, no matter how much you have, you can give something, whether it be time or even just a little bit of treasure, like, there's always something you can do. And when I talk to people, sometimes I'm working with folks that are approaching retirement, and they're, you know, they'll say to me, Paul, I've got to cut back on some of my charitable stuff and giving, because, you know, I'm entering this, this new stage of life. And sometimes it's because maybe they didn't think about this early, early on, right? So if we're talking to young people right now, you. It's sometimes hard to when I talk to young people, because in this day and age, everything's so fast, right? You know, I was telling a story the other day of I like to go fishing and ordering mail, ordering something from my catalog, my Bass Pro Shops catalog, and filling out the order form and the product numbers and giving my money to my mom, and she's giving me a check, and I'm mailing it in and, you know, calling up, and they'll say it's, you know, allow four to six weeks for delivery. I mean, we are so spoiled now two, you know, two days, same day. I mean, it's ridiculous, but when we look at kind of building wealth for the future, right, not just for us, but to do God's work in the future too, right? So that we don't have to do less. As we get older, we're able to do more, you know. And this is Proverbs, 1311, I love this because it reminds us not to look for that, get rich, quick scheme, right? That that quick hit or, you know, and we get that. You can see it all over social media, whatever. Do these three things to build wealth fast. Do this, that and the other thing, right? Like, there's some some magic wand, but proverbs 1311, says, wealth gain hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it. And so, Chris, my question for you is, what are some simple behaviors, like key behaviors, that would help people build wealth slowly and steadily over time so that they can have a legacy of generosity, right? It not just, not just for right now, but how did what are some key behaviors that people can implement, particularly if they're younger? Yeah, I think there's two ways. One is, I think, to go to work for yourself. First of all, because if you're when we have a chance to go to work for ourselves and not work that isn't given to everybody. There are more our economy is becoming more entrepreneurial. There's no question about it. And a couple things happen there when folks, over time, migrate to a more entrepreneurial environment. One, they have a tendency to have a little bit more control, which is a very important I think. And so they can control the environment, and they can make it a more Christ centered environment, which I've seen a lot of business leaders do that, which is wonderful, you know. And also, of course, that's a way, yeah, I can't tell you how many people we've seen over the years that struggled and built a business and worked hard, and then, excuse me, you know, saved a little bit and tried over time, aspired and got to that seven to 10% savings. But a lot of times, when you're running your own business, you don't have the discipline to set aside a 401, K, or whatever it is. But at the end, or getting towards the end, what's happened is now there's this huge different market that's appeared, the private, you know, the private equity market, which is buying all these companies, which is really interesting. And I've been really kind of excited to meet lots of private equity Catholics, which is wonderful. So there's these pools of private equity guys. They're buying businesses that many times the guys buying them are aligned with the people selling them, and create some economic opportunity. So I would say, encourage people to, if they've grown up in an environment of non entrepreneurialism, to consider it over time, consider saying, you know, and I think you went through it, Paul, it's hard, right? To jump off the bus, right? Because everyone says, Get a go to good college, get a job. Oh my gosh. You work at Citibank, or wherever it is, and you should feel so comfortable, right? And that's it. And work your way up. And there's nothing that's wonderful for the right folks. But so many people aren't meant for that. If you're, if you're, if the voice is telling you you're meant to run your own ship. Consider it, because it's even though it's harder, that's one that's slow, that's very slow, to your point, that takes decades, many times, right? And then to have an exit, and then, I think, from the vast majority of us also just to really get in the habits early on. You know, a few years ago, they started defaulting people to 401, K savings, which is great. So you started a job and you have to opt out of it, which is wonderful. It's automatic in your 401 k, which is the best way, without question, to say. So we say to folks all the time, this minute, you get that job at the very least, let's take at least four to 5% of our pay. You won't miss it. It's pre tax. And then, and then add likely, as we start to have a family, much many Catholics do have, we would say, let's start also the same thing. Let's start even if it's$20 a month into that college savings plan, because that'll grow as well. And those habits. What happens with those habits is, as people start to work their way kind of deeper into their careers, those habits don't go away. They get stronger and stronger. Then all of a sudden you see somebody ultimately that started two or 3% of their compensation saving when they were making $45,000 a year as a youth minister. Now here they are at 50 years old, making 600 500 you know, big free $300,000 a year, and they're saving 20% of their their pre retirement, and they're also giving away and funding the church. So, so it's really a very important thing that we support, you know, not on ourselves. We talked about before, support, support the church. Because, you know, how many of these people, we all say it Paul right, these sisters that are praying right in a closer convent somewhere, we think prayers are real and very, very important. Well, whose responsibility is it to to make sure they're able to do that? It's our shared responsibility. Is the way. So. Think it's those disciplines and habits of building over the long term and by going slowly, I think is a very good thing, whether it's in a business that I was creating wealth that way, or in a by savings and accumulating and living by that, you know, discipline, some of the stuff people are chasing today just doesn't make any sense. They you know, I see, you know, you know, I see people collecting watches, you know? And I said, Tell me about that. How bored again. This is just me. I have making me crazy. I say to myself, how bored do you have to be in your life that you say, I want to have 11 watches. I have a device that wine watches for me because I can't wear them to make them keep work. I said, think about that for a sec. You know, in Legatus, I had a great opportunity to be the vice chair for a long time with Tom Monahan. I admire Tom Monahan. You know, Tom founded Legatus in Ave Maria University, and he started Domino's Pizza. And, you know, I think at one time, he told me that he had the best wine collection. I think Wine Spectator said he had the best wine collection, private wine collection in the United States. And I don't think he's and he would tell you as when he really thought about that for a second, he said, I don't know that I should be proud of that, you know. And I admire Tom Mohan completely. His life has been. I think of him as just an incredible, incredible role model, incredible kind of warrior for Christ. And he would tell the story, yeah, I don't know if you've ever been up to Domino's farms up in Ann Arbor, but he's got a big office complex that, and there's artwork all over the walls. It's a huge complex, and there's artwork all over the walls. And I said, why are there little tags on them? And somebody said, Oh, that's because when Tom, you know, was before he kind of really, you know, really fully engaged in his faith. He had guys buy an artwork for him all over the country. And I said, How could you possibly ever see all this artwork? He said, I didn't see most of it. He just went in storage. Well, now it's all been it's up on display, and it's all for sale. So if you're ever in Domino's farms and you buy one of those pieces of artwork, all that money goes to the church in ABE Maria. So it's beautiful. But my point is, if sometimes, if we get too, too, you know, caught up in our own in our own habits, or whatever it is, and we can all be guilty of that, you know. And I think watches is the great example of that, I think, you know. And I say to my friends, don't buy so many watches. And if you're a golfer, don't spend any time in the men's grill, because that's nothing good happens in the men's grill. If you're if you have to go play golf, which I'm a terrible golfer, I said, just get it over with and get home and take care, or get somewhere else. But nothing good ever happens there, you know, there, there you go. Well. And I think you know, for those people with the entrepreneurial spirit and and with those gifts, I think to your point like, leverage those gifts that God's given you to go bless others. And for those people, you know that support an entrepreneur, right? Work for them, or, you know, serve in that way. You know, having, you know, for all of us, having that savings muscle, right, that habit, that behavior, to set some money aside, to not consume everything we have, is key and and it is a huge help. A part of what I also do, I'm a fractional CFO on the side a little bit. And one of the companies I work with, we set up a 401, K, not long ago. And I was, you know, when we had a meeting with the employees, I told them, I promise, you guys, 10 years from now, you're going to look back and this will be the best thing that we've done for you, you know. And already, to your point, they got automatically enrolled, and so many of them have already increased it right when they get that pay raise, when they get that bonus, they're turning it up a little bit. And it was funny, we were just looking at some year end stuff and to see the growth this year that that has had. There's there's many factors into it, but if you're not putting anything in, nothing's going to happen with it, you know? So having just that regular habit, that that steady behavior, is key. So I've got one, one last question here for you, Chris, and we can talk about anything else that you think might be very relevant, but, you know, talking about investing, right? So you've got money, you're putting it in different places. One of the things that comes up regularly when I talk to people of faith is, how can I buy that mutual fund or invest in that thing when I know this about that company, or, you know, I don't agree with half the things they do, whether it, you know, be media companies, medical companies, you know, that promote things that are against the Catholic Church, like, how? How? How do you help people kind of reconcile that? Yeah, our company is Aquinas, Wealth Advisors. That's really why we were established. We realized that technology has made it possible for people of faith to actually align their faith life and their financial life. For years, it really wasn't now. The reality is, 20 years ago, it wasn't that necessary, because companies weren't really socially active, and we had a fundamental Judeo Christian ethic to everything that we did. So meaning companies wouldn't, 25 years ago, likely give money to what they believe to be an organization that's radical. Well, they wouldn't give it to they wouldn't give it to Planned Parenthood, because they would be fearful of the repercussions that they would receive from their customers. And they would, you know, this is an all. This is not a novel idea, Paul, but I always talk about this. We're encouraging customers and the basics at Aquinas, Wealth Advisors, our goal is to have to radically transform the world to have these, you know, kind of oddly empowered CEOs. Think about this for a second. These CEOs have had a hubris to come forward and say it is wrong that they're not. They're going to not provide abortions. So we will pay $4,000 out of the corporate dollars they if they want to do other personal dollars, they could do that. They don't. We're going to pay for our employees to travel to another state to have an abortion, and at the same time, never, ever mentioning that they would pay $4,000 to have an employee who to support, give them the support who chooses to have the child. Right? So there's been this kind of shift, this kind of, I always say, this radical progressiveness that permeated like, you know, it was cooked up. Paul, I think about I gave a speech a couple years, about a year and a half ago, we did a debate between Faith Based Investing and what's called ESG investing, right? And But thankfully, it's been clipped at the wings a little bit, because the it was just startling what was happening in Wall Street. So kind of this radical progressiveness that permeated the college rooms, you know, the college boardrooms, I, I would say, the faculty lounge at Middlebury. Somebody said, this is a great idea. We should. We should. We should nothing against Middlebury, but, but this whole cabal of this progressiveness was it crept into the it crept into the boardrooms as well, where chairmans of board said, we are going to take a very progressive stance. We're going to completely disregard the opinions of our our faith based, which is at least half the country, right? Christ loving people, and we're going to just go full full guns ahead, and we're not only going to we're going to not only disregard people face opinions, we're going to actually attack them. Think about that for a second. People always said to me, Well, why would remember a couple of years ago, why would target sell, you know, boys bathing suits in the girls section, they weren't going to sell that many of them. They weren't doing that at all. They were doing that to signal to us. This is, you know, virtue signaling. Look at us. Look how progressive we are, right? And thankfully, the markets have spoken and said, Absolutely not. I mean, Disney stock. Think about that, Paul for a second a year ago, Disney, you might remember two years ago that woman came on, did that web interview where she said, I'm going to put in every movie as many alternate lifestyle characters, because that's the way the world is going. And the world said, No, it's not actually true, right? We, you know, we love and embrace everybody. Everyone's creating God's image, but the concept that these are healthy and regular images is is not is not healthy. You might remember, Disney actually sat around that same time after it, they were no longer to use the terminology, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, because it was offensive. Think about that for a second. Who is that offensive to? A giraffes? I don't know who that's offensive to when you think about it, right? We the idea so this all kind of came at us, and we were, for a long time we, as folks of faith, were saying, well, we better not say much. We don't know. Remember, that was the idea we don't want to look like we are too you know, we don't want to look like we're too emotional about this, this too shall pass kind of thing. But ultimately, it was really bananas. And I remember a person saying to me, ESG, investing. The concept was simple. It was open and kind to everyone except people of faith. That was the bottom line, right? There was there was no there was no room for us at that. We had to keep quiet. And I think that's what you're advised to do. The great news is, and the reason we started our company years ago is because we said we want to give people a voice and use technology. There's a lot of wrong with technology, but what's happening with technology today is it's wonderful because we can, for the first time, peel back the curtain and see what these companies are actually supporting. So to your point, now, we don't have to invest in companies that are not only just engaged in the business of you know, particularly abortion, what an unbelievably dark thing, right? Or pornography. Paul, 20 years ago, CEOs would have been humiliated to say, we own, you know, we own companies that we develop pornography, right? I mean, that's the end of the world. I saw a note probably about three months ago from a CEO that acquired a company, one of these online, you know, like online, private, you know, pornography from home. And he said, We are so excited about this because we're creating a safe environment for always, not developers, but for content creators to develop in a safe and healthy environment where this, you know, ultimately, is say is society is better off as a result of this absurd behavior. And I think we have people of faith have to say we're no longer going to talk. We aren't going to tolerate this, and then cut America is the greatest country in the world. We can if that is what you like, and that is your opinion. That's fine. But the idea to dismiss us. Which is more than half the country as completely Neanderthal and stuck in archaic ideas. Is one, it's offensive at two, it's it will be the detriment of the business. Can you can see that the stock market has responded, you know, the bud light thing, the the the, certainly the Disney thing I mentioned a few minutes ago, the target thing. What they're saying to us is, guys, we need to come back to a place where companies make money. And remember, it's not just the businesses they're in, but it's the things they provoke promote socially, which we can now tell and I talk a little bit about that in the book and in Aquinas, we develop some tools to help people see this, but we can say, what are they supporting their social activism? Because we don't want to be in a position to be supporting companies in our business. Paul, we help individuals all the time. We also help dioceses and larger institutions, and we're working with institutions and telling them in meetings, Catholic institutions, look this is good news, because we couldn't tell before. Now we can come back to you and say, gosh, guys, it looks like, based on our math, that you paid for 400 abortions last year. And they said, What? And they said, What am I? What are you talking about? We're a Catholic institution. It's horrifying. But the great news is the technology allows us to then say, Wait a second, we have to go back to these companies and say, We can no longer invest in your company because from a not even from a business perspective, your charitable arm is giving money directly to this organization that promotes, you know, lifestyles that I think hurt people, ultimately, lifestyles that hurt people, or certainly abortions which murder people, right? So I think now people of faith, there's online resources we talk about in the book. There's free online resources. There's several companies that offer some mutual funds that do some screening. There's a company like ours, which is a national faith based firm that helps people get portfolios that are in alignment with their faith. The good news is, I think, as a group, cumulatively, we'll win this battle. We'll be able to pull these companies back to neutral. Companies should make profits. They should be good to their employees. They should be good to the country, and they should return the profits to the shareholders in the form of dividends, and let the let the individuals determine what they will support. And I think we're going to get back to that, which I'm excited about. No and thank you. You know what? One of the things as you're as you're talking here, Chris, that kind of hits me is you're bringing your faith and your passion into what you are doing, even though you know you're not work formally, working for the church, right? You're just, you're a disciple on mission trying to work in your corner of the vineyard. And I think that's just a great reminder to all of us. You know that there's the in the place that we find ourselves today, there's opportunity to witness, to speak truth, to draw people towards the Lord and to be a witness, to show that example, because, you know, I, you know I remember as a kid, especially like a younger, immature version, whether it be high school, college age, or whatever you can you can think, well, I don't want to be the weirdo that's convicted by by by something. But the older you get. And I think it's the Mark Twain quote, right? When I was 17, my dad was an idiot. When I was 21 I couldn't believe how much he learned in five years. That's great. You know, there's just something about just maturity in life, in our in our spiritual journey, in our our business. You know, you even said older you get people start to look at, like, what am I doing? Like, what, what's, what's the purpose of it? How can I help and, and, and what legacy will leave, you know, and again, not not just for us, but just for like, how can, when I leave, how can I continue to point people towards the Lord, you know, it's, it's just, it's a great, it's a great perspective to have. And I think, you know, everyone, wherever they are, can participate in this, you know, and to just be be mindful. Be thoughtful. Be prayerful. I talk a lot about praying is the most important thing we can do in our decision making. As Catholics, we can, you know, be faced with the same decisions that everyone else in the world is faced with, but we should the way we make a decision should look differently, right? Because our it should pass through our faith and our well formed conscience to say what it, what it, what ought I do in this situation? What's something that will move me closer to my ultimate goal, right, which is to one day be in Heaven with the Lord and hopefully, hopefully everyone else. That's the goal. That lenses. You write on the account looking through a lens of faith. First is the word, you know, I used to say in business, I used to say Paul. Most important. I gave talks to financial people when I was building my financial business, I would say the most important word in the English language is next. I would say, because, you know, to my children, I say the same thing, you didn't get a good grade. Now, make it better. You didn't next. You didn't the boy didn't ask you to dance next, whatever, whatever it was in business, that client didn't come. And I said, How short sighted was that? Right? Because the because, you know, obviously the most important language is Christ, and then everything else. So we, it took me a long time to get there. We have to look through that lens first, because that's the most. Important lens, and as that is a backdrop to our decision maker, we all fall down. We make mistakes, we get angry, right? But we come back and say to folks, hey, I'm trying to, you know, figure this out in a more meaningful way, in a more Christ aligned way, and the decision making will be so much, so much better. And I think that our spouses can help us so much that too. Because if we measured by what, what, what is the right thing to do here, how often is it just to say, you know, what would my, what would my wife think about this? What might, and I think about that too. What would my children think about this decision if they were to know? And in our businesses, some of my, some of our, I'm very excited a couple of our one of our sons on Wall Street, he came to join our firm. And I think to myself, you know now, it even changes it more because the scrutiny of not only the public, but also you know, to you want to you want to see, when someone says, what do they see behind the curtain? And you want them to say they see the exact same thing behind the curtain that they see in front of the curtain and everywhere, that transparency and living that 360, degree life, which I've been guilty of, I'm embarrassed. I've been guilty of saying, no, no, this is just for business. So I'll be able to push forward on this issue. But you know, he came, he came for the centers. He came. He didn't come for the so he came for to help us. And you know, today's the day, and I think if we engage in a look at it from that lens as much as we can, and not only our finances. That's that unbundled, that 360, degree life we talked about. I think things get better and better, both financially, personally and certainly, ultimately, to our goal to get to heaven. I agree, and that's that's a great perspective. And to your point, like the sooner we can grasp that just the better our life will be like, the more peace we'll have, the more hope we'll have, the more joy we'll have. So that's awesome, Chris, thank you for joining me today. I probably Thanks. I appreciate it. Is a great perspective you have and bring and some some great stories. So I appreciate you participating this well, remind my friends at home too, about our Catholic the shore, big conference in New Jersey every year. It's huge. We're getting Catholic tomorrow the country. I'd love you to I'd love from folks to come down and join us. And Patricia Heaton is coming this year, which is great. And Father Mike last came and lit it up. Okay, so it'll be a great it'll be a great time in New Jersey, and next May. So thanks for thinking. Thank you, Paul. No, I appreciate it. Thank you, Chris. You have a great day. Thank you for listening to Catholic money talk. I hope you join us again next time, please click Subscribe in your podcast app to get notified of new episodes. God bless you and have a great day. You.