Episode 36 - Virtue and Finance with Dr Justin Anderson

I am joined by my good friend Dr Justin Anderson as we discuss Virtue and finance. Particularly focusing on the virtue of prudence.

 Justin is Professor and Chair of Moral Theology at Immaculate Conception Seminary School of Theology at Seton Hall University. He is also the author of the book Virtue and Grace in the Theology of Thomas Aquinas and co-author of Pursuing the Honorable: Honor and Today's Military. To give you an idea, some of the courses that he teaches are Fundamental Moral Theology I and II, Catholic Social Teaching, Moral Evil and Moral Absolutes, and Christian Decision Making.

Transcript

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Paul, Welcome to Catholic money talk, where we talk about all things money and finance, and we try to do it through a lens of being Catholic, where our ultimate goal is to one day be in Heaven with the Lord. I am your host. Paul Scarfone, thank you for being here today. Hello. Today, I'm joined by my good friend, Dr Justin Anderson. We'll be discussing virtue is how they relate to finances. But before we do that, let's start with a prayer in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen, Heavenly Father, we thank you for this day. We thank you for all the ways that you love and bless us. Lord. We know that you love us and you have a great plan for us. Allow us to yield to your Holy Spirit. We ask all this in Jesus, name, amen, name of the Father Son, Holy Spirit, amen, amen. So welcome Justin. Thank you for joining me today. Thanks, Paul. This is this is great. I'm really excited about what you're doing here, and glad to be part of it for today. So before we start, a little more about Justin. He is a professor and chair of moral Theology at Immaculate Conception seminary School of Theology at Seton Hall University, right here in New Jersey. He's also the author of the book virtue and grace in the theology of Thomas Aquinas, and co author of pursuing the honorable honor and today's military. And to give just a brief idea, some of the courses that he teaches at Seton Hall. There's fundamental moral theology, one and two, Catholic Social Teaching, moral evil and moral absolutes and Christian decision making, which is probably intriguing me the most as far as what we talk about here. So, so thank you, Justin, absolutely, absolutely, thanks. Did I miss anything? No, you didn't. It was perfect. All right, you're also, you're also a great husband dad. For how many kids? Five? We got five kids. Five kids. Awesome. So Justin, as Catholics, we face many of the same financial decisions that non Catholics, non Christians, they're going to face, and as Christians, we might end up making the actual same decision that others make, but we should probably get to our decisions differently. So do financial decisions have anything to do with Christian virtues? Yeah, absolutely, it's a great question. So I'd say maybe it makes sense just to sort of clear the playing field and just sort of talk about what a virtue is before we answer that. And so in the Catholic tradition, and really in the great sort of Western tradition, virtues are our excellences. I always tell my students, they're sort of like moral muscles. You know, muscles for your soul, but virtues are muscles that you can only use for good things. So by definition, they're always good. And so we have a sort of an array of virtues we talk about. And you can, sort of, you know, your listeners can look at this in the Catholic Catechism, for example, in number 1805 and we're going to be talking especially about what's in 1806 that is the virtue of prudence. And I think when I think of the virtues and what you're doing here, and the great work you're doing, and what people are trying to do, when we try to wrap our minds around, how do we make decisions about our finances, and how do we do this as Christians, I think I think mostly the first virtue we would stop at is probably this virtue of prudence. And that sort of throws us a bit because prudence, when we say to people today, you know, be prudent, we usually mean slow down, be cautious. And that's not actually what the virtue of prudence means. The virtue of prudence is knowing how to act in a particular situation for the best and so and that involves really two things. It makes sure that we're training our site well. That is, we're recognizing what are the issues at play in this situation. And the second thing we're doing, after we've thought about and we sort of perceive the issues at play is knowing how to think about what we're supposed to do once we're looking at the right issues. So prudence does two things for us. In fact, as one author says, Joseph Pieper, one of my favorites on this, he says, Prudence has sort of it looks both ways. It looks in the way of what's going on around me concretely, really practically, and that's and that descends into some really particulars, because everyone's situation can be very different, but at the same time, it then gives me guidance as how I should think rightly about something to be done. Now that's not the end of the story. We still have to do it, and there's a lot of other virtues to talk about there, and sort of moral muscles, but prudence is sort of about the that sort of clear sighted thinking about how I should act. And so when I think about some of the things that you're talking about here, it's, you're really probably talking about a form of prudence that's financial prudence. And there's different kinds of prudence. You know that this is true? And you'll see in someone's like St Thomas Aquinas, and even the great air, the great philosophers like Aristotle, you'll, you'll see them talk about different kinds of prudence. So for example, you know, there's the prudence of someone who leads an army. You know, in the ancient world, they sort of like to talk about this and and then there's the prudence of the person who leads the city or the state, the governor, you know, there's the prudence of the one who leads a household, you know. And maybe today, I like to talk, you know, I teach theology. I like to talk about a pastoral prudence. There's really, there's a sort of different kinds of prudence, if you will. And so I think what, I think, one of the things that we'd want to be talking about is really not just virtue, not just prudence, but, in fact, financial prudence. And what does that look like? Remembering that we do two things. We want to get a clear sighted vision of where we're at, what's our situation like right now, and we want to understand that properly. And then the second thing is, okay, now, what do I do about that? Like, how do I proceed to think clearly about what ought to be done, or, more simply, what ought not be done, right? I mean, maybe there's some things first and foremost we should say I should stop doing before I start sort of being more proactive in this way or that way, some bad habits to clear out so and in getting this sort of right vision and right thinking that prudence does for us. There's a whole cluster of virtues that come in, you know, because I can't see straight in my life, if I'm, you know, inundated with anger, you know, we always say, like, don't reply to the email that's really sort of made you mad, right? And give it 24 hours. Why? Because I'm not going to forget how to type. The problem is I'll probably remember how to type, but I'll be so angry. I'm not actually seeing the situation for what it is. I'm not seeing this person as maybe made in God's image and likeness right now. I'm just seeing them as an obstacle to what I wanted to do. So so there's a lot of other virtues they're going to play into. Can I see rightly this situation, my financial situation, and then how do I think rightly about what to be done? So I'd say those two parts of virtue are particularly rich, and realizing that in the Catholic tradition, there really are these sort of sub parts of prudence, where different kinds of prudence, where we talk about, you know, governing prudence, domestic prudence, we might talk about financial prudence. What you're saying about prudence? I'm thinking of either people I've sat with, or even my own thoughts on making prudent financial decisions, the way you just described it, like stopping taking a look at what's around, figuring out what situation you're actually and then trying to figure out what's the right thing to do. Thing to do to go forward in whatever decision that is. Sometimes, I think we, you know, people in general might find themselves in they they don't have the luxury to stop and think about what's going on around them. Maybe there's pressures, maybe there's some crisis moment that's going on. Then there's others that maybe they do have time, right? Maybe they feel like, All right, we've got some time to figure out whatever, whatever they're faced with. Maybe it's a shopping around for a repair at the at the house, a car, a home, you know, maybe something bigger that just naturally we want to spend a little bit more time on. But there's, as you're talking, I'm thinking like this is actually a great topic, because whether you're Christian or not, I think there's a natural draw to be prudent, like there's something in our spirit that even someone who's not, you know, a follower of Christ might be. We probably shouldn't make a hasty decision here. But what are some ways that you know maybe, maybe some further questions than those two that you gave us that might help, like, elicit, like, which direction someone could go, and are there specific things that a Christian should think of that maybe you know, if I'm buying a home, I'm probably going to talk to a mortgage person. I'm going to talk to a realtor, but they might not have the Christian mindset that I want, right? So what are some ways to, kind of, you know, questions, to make sure that we're exercising the right type of prudence that we're talking about? Yeah, that was a great question. So I mean, I think in one way, you're right. I mean, prudence is very much, and the Catechism says this, it's part of the cardinal virtues, part of the human virtues. So really, if we're just going to be good, solid humans, we want sort of, the Catechism talks about prudence, justice, temperance and courage. You know, everyone sort of needs these. But on top of these, the Christian talks us particularly about faith, hope and love. And we read these right in First Corinthians 13, right, where St Paul says, Look, you know, in the end, there's faith, hope and love, and the greatest of these is love and and what he's talking about when he says, Love is not just a warm, fuzzy either, right? He's talking about Romans five, five. Love. God's love poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit who's been given to us. So God's poured into our hearts through grace, right? He's given us this sort of capacity to love him in the way that with our whole heart, everything that Christ asked us to do. And it's God's power in us to be able to sort of bring us alive to this life with God. So as I mentioned, just as prudence has a whole cluster of virtues behind it, you know, you want to be temperate, you don't want to be overreacting in anger when you're writing the email. There's also the theological virtues, these virtues of faith, hope and love, which can color our decision making. Does that make sense? So it brings it in a particularly Christian way. So what, what in particular might be that, um, of all of the of all three of these virtues, and I think there's a lot to be said about faith here. I always, oftentimes joke with my students, you know, if, if Aristotle was in the boat with St Peter during the storm, and Jesus calls peter out on the water, you know, what is Aristotle? You know, just as a smart human being, what is he going to be saying to Peter, like you're out of your mind, like don't get out of the boat, but Peter steps out of the boat in faith. And so I think there's a lot to be said about how faith can influence prudence. Notice how we think about the right thing to do in that situation. Peter is in territory that just Aristotle doesn't recognize and can't in a certain way. I think the other one though that particularly and sometimes flies under the radar for us. We talk about faith, we talk about love a lot, but I think it's actually hope which and there's been a lot of work I know Pope Benedict the 16th wrote an encyclical, spes Salvi on hope, on the theological virtue of hope. And one of the beautiful things he said about that is, you know, for the Christian, we live in faith, but we also live in hope. We have our eyes on a horizon that is about really, what we would say is our ultimate goal in life, and that is eternal life with God. And so how does living with that on the horizon change everything today. Hope isn't actually, and this is the great point of Pope Benedict. Hope is not actually just about the future. It's how the future reaches back and changes today. And so, for example, when I'm meeting with someone, and they might be, you know, like Aristotle, someone who's has has a lot to give as far as good, solid financial advice, mortgage lender, whatever it might be, or whatnot. But still, there's that perspective that I think as disciples of the Lord, we want to keep front and center. And I think really, when I think of the virtues, there's a lot to be said, but I think especially of hope, because of that beautiful phrase of Pope Benedict, is his hope is how the future reaches back and changes today. And so when we're when we're people of hope, when we live in hope, we're letting our call to eternal life with God and living face to face with Jesus Christ, we let that actually change everything about today and and that comes into prudence, then that's one of those clusters of virtues that's going to change the way I'm thinking about what's the right thing to do, just like St Peter, what's the right thing to do in this situation? Well, it's to get out of the boat, even though Aristotle's sitting there going, you're nuts, you know? But that's that's it, because that's that call of the Lord that comes across the water to us. And I like that example you have with St Peter, because there was other guys in the boat too, right? And he called, he called St Peter. And I think sometimes, especially in financial stuff, what I see is, I'm not going to necessarily call it keeping up with the Joneses. It's not that but, but sometimes when we're trying to figure out what we ought to do in certain financial decisions, we have a strong tendency to look at the people around us and say, Well, what's everybody else doing? Yeah, right. And it's one of those things that there's not, you know, when I help people with finances, it's not all just cookie cutter, right? That same things the same for everybody, but some people, just by God's design of them. They're, they're, we're all different, and so something that someone might deem or discern as prudent for them and their family and their situation, it might not be the same thing for someone else, just because the Lord hasn't called them in that way. Is, is that fair to say? Yeah. I mean, I think the other thing that we could really talk about, and again, the Catechism does this as well. When it's talking about living as disciples of Christ, it brings front and center that sort of social dimension as well, that community dimension, right? We do live around other people, and keeping up with the Joneses is a problem. I think there's also another way to say that in the life of as we pursue virtues, pursue sanctity and holiness, really what we end up having, though, is, is this sense that sometimes examples are exactly what I do need, you know? So, so this can cut what I mean to say is it's not easy. See it can cut both ways. Sometimes what I need is, I need that person that can serve as an example for me, which is good. And yet there's other times, as you're pointing out, where that can be, that sort of glance over my shoulder to see what the other person is doing actually begins to thwart my own journey, my own my own pursuing of how to live this life well, with my finances and in light of the gospel values. So I think you're right. I think it can cut both ways. So for example, I'd say this, you know, early on, someone might actually sit up and say, maybe one of your listeners was like, gosh, like, I should really be more financially prudent than I am. What am I to do well, first off, recognize that, you know that insight itself is a gift. That's a great thing to already recognize is I'm in a situation where I could use a little more wisdom here. So that's great, right? Because we're in a real predicament when we could use more wisdom when we don't even recognize it. That's, that's, that's probably our worst situation. But then what do we do? Well, we might, we might seek out someone that has this sort of perspective, right? This Christian perspective, this following the Lord perspective, and is financially wise, that would be great. But we can't always, maybe necessarily find them either. So so as we sort of move in this direction, we need examples. We need someone to say, are you seeing things rightly? Remember that first task of prudence Are you seeing things rightly in your financial situation? And that takes a little bit of trust in that other person as model, as role. And that's a very positive thing about who's around us and who we choose to sort of have around us in this situation and speak into this situation in our lives. And yet this can really become as we become clear on Yes, I do see my situation rightly, and I'm going to therefore act in X, Y and Z way, because I think God is calling me to that. I think that's the part where keeping up with the Joneses really becomes more a temptation, because then suddenly we're looking over our shoulder going, self doubt, right? I heard the Lord's call. I know what I need to do here. I see it rightly. I'm trying to think clearly and well about these things to guide whatever my own financial life, the life of my family, whatever it might be a community I'm in charge of. But at a certain moment, it's the glance over the shoulder at what the Joneses are doing that you start to say, oh, self doubt creeps in to that original I see things rightly, and this is what I what this is what the Lord's asking me to do. So I think community can cut a little bit of both ways here, if that makes sense, it can be a very positive help that I have people there, especially early on, to help purify my vision of what I'm doing, how I'm seeing things, and how I'm thinking. And at the same time it can, it can actually rattle me in an unhelpful way at moments, too, and that's tough discerning which one is which is not easy either. I'm happy you said that about finding someone to talk to, because it's something we talk about all the time. I talk about all the time, whether it's with my coaching clients or here on the podcast. But you know, the benefit of being married is we have someone to talk to. Yeah, absolutely. And in our spouse, single people can find it more challenging. But what I have found it to be really helpful. And thinking of the scripture verse that your heart will be where your treasure is, right, there's we talk about. If you look at someone's schedule, you can tell what's a priority them, where they spend their time. Same thing is where they spend their money. And one of the things I like to look at is, if you tell me how your heart is, we can look at your budget or your financial plan, whatever decision you're at. And sometimes we can see, does your your financial plan reflect actually what's in your heart, and if it's doesn't, we can change it. And that doesn't always take a financial expert to say, hey, well, what you just told me that the Lord put on your heart you're showing me on paper, and I don't see how that connects. Can you explain it further, you know? And so having that person is important, but, and we could spend probably several hours on this one, but how important is it working with your spouse on some of these things, to exercise that muscle of prudence, that virtue, when you're working on financial things? Yeah, and I That's great question. I mean, I think you're right as a married man, and you're as a married man. I mean, I think I feel like we're cheating life in a way, right? You have this sort of built in, you know, sort of person and and I know both are, I, I would say both our wives are wonderful, virtuous people. And I think that's the key, is you're talking with someone who shares this desire to follow Christ in everything that they do. And I think if you're, if you're someone in that situation, and maybe not everyone is, maybe their marriage, maybe marriage is in a different spot. Or, as you said, single people might be, you know, looking for a friend group, looking for some kind of, not just a friend group, but really a community of people. Where they can not only talk about finances, but really talk about life with, with, with Christ. I'm thinking of Ignatius of Loyola, when he was single, before he began the Jesuits, he he reveled in the ability to find people that he could have spiritual, deep spiritual conversation with. And I think that's the kind of when you have that, then you can sort of bring forward these sort of finances. And it's in the proper context anyway, whether it be marriage or whether it be, you know, good spiritual conversation. Friends, yeah, absolutely, and, and they can sort of call us on, no doubt. But I and I think there's a certain Grace there, particularly in marriage, to be honest, I remember I went to Confession just before I got married, sort of the traditional thing to do. And I remember the Confessor saying, this is a few days before we got married, and he said, know that when you get married, God will speak to you through your spouse. And now that you know that's not a sign of infallibility, that everything my wife says, or anything I say, right, I'm her spouse, like everything is good. I don't want that weight, and she doesn't want that weight, but I think it's definitely served true after some 14 years of marriage, that I can definitely point at things and said, Wow, like either I missed it or I didn't, but regardless, that was actually the Holy Spirit speaking to me through my wife. So I think that there's a certain Grace there as well with the sacraments and the sacrament of marriage. But I Yes. So all of this is absolutely true. I think that the person being able to speak to us, is someone that can speak to us well about our finances, more than anything, because they share a wider vision of life, and I think that's probably the key thing and and certainly when it comes to a spouse, we're talking about someone that not only shares the vision, but also shares all the impact, right? We're making financial decisions that that impacts my spouse. My spouse makes financial decisions that impact me. So for heaven's sakes, yeah, that's that's a really important thing. I used to before I was married, I used to sort of bemoan the fact, you'd hear the statistic that a lot of marriages would end because of financial arguments, arguments over money. And at first I thought, well, that's how sad people just care about money, and that's in and then after I got married, I realized, Oh, actually, the reason people have arguments about money is because, of all places we see our priorities, where the rubber hits the hits the road, it's how we spend our money. You know, it's, it's, it's, on the first anniversary of our marriage. Are we going to go splurge, you know, when we're living in a one bedroom studio apartment, are we going to go splurge on a $500 dinner, or are we going to go to McDonald's and just be happy to get like and there's different takes on that, and there's little ground too. I hope there are. So I think that's the kind of thing. I think you're if you're talking about someone who's married and seeking the Lord and wife seeking the Lord, or spouse seeking the Lord, and that, then I think, yeah, there's such a richness of, sort of obviously shared one life. You know, Scripture says, you know, the man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife, and the two shall be one. And a lot of times that's taken as one of the other courses I teach are Christian marriage. This is sort of coming back like biblically that's taken in Genesis two, for many people to talk somehow about sexuality. But in fact, in fact, in the rabbinical tradition, the Jewish tradition, that was understood that they are considered one, legally, they are considered one. Socially, like you don't invite one without the other. I mean, all these things we might take for granted. They're considered one financially, economically. So that verse actually speaks to the unity of life more than anything else. And then yes, of course, family and everything else there as well. So I think Scripture speaks very strongly to this as well, this unity of life, that that a that a couple that is married is called to and, of course, it's going to impact financially and having that person be your sort of built in. Are we doing what we say we're doing? You know, that's a really important question. And sometimes even beyond that, you still might need another voice to speak into things, just because, you know, I think in a particular in crisis modes or areas of high stress, it's hard, even just within the couple, your two perspectives can sometimes be still clouded absolutely and you need that however you referenced it, that just broader vision of life and what's going on around because none of us like to make decisions in a high stress environment. It can be scary, and many times we'll recognize that this could be a make it or break it type of thing where you know some some financial trend that transactions are not easily undone or reversed, absolutely so having that moment. Now, the nice thing about you know, you bringing up the virtue of prudence here, sometimes with things that we talk about here, particularly as it relates to some practical stuff, maybe it's saving for retirement, things like that. The sometimes the older people are, they tend to have maybe a little. Us hope in some of the things that we discuss, however, something like bringing prudence into your financial decisions like clearly, it's never too late to do that. It's not like you've lost so much because you haven't been doing it. You can do it. You can do it immediately. And the virtues all work together. You were saying that, yeah, so someone who might be in a spot that they wish they had done this years ago, they might, you know, there should be using these virtues or pursuing them. It should bring hope in, yeah, absolutely. And I think in right? Because when we speak about hope, we speak about having our eyes on God, you know, so it's not, it can be sort of hope and temporal things, but that's really never our final hope. You know, when we talk about the virtue of hope as again, Joseph Pieper, this author, he wrote a book on hope. He was German. He wrote it post World War Two in Germany, about hope. I mean, it's, it's a powerful read and very short, but, um, but, but but a wonderful thing. And one of the things he says is, look, hope is either a theological virtue or it's no virtue at all. In other words, it's either aimed at God or actually can become a really dangerous thing that we start placing our hope. And how often do we see this in Proverbs? We start placing our hope in things we shouldn't, you know, so it can become sort of this sort of a dangerous thing. We could talk more about hope and in that way. But, yeah, I think that. I think that hope is always hope in God and but I think another thing that you bring up, and your thought there brings up, is that, why are we pursuing these virtues? And I think it helps to call back what the Church teaches us, that a virtue is it's an excellence. It's a moral muscle, it's a muscle of our soul. So rather than just hey, I definitely want all the good outcome from being a prudent person. I do. I want that, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I actually want to become prudent, because it's about developing myself in such a way that I can become a better disciple. And so to sort of, we never want to be in a situation where we say, well, I'm not going to really see the effects, right? I'm an older I'm an older, older person. I've been traveling a long time. I'm just sort of realizing, gosh, I would have done things differently if I could, and I'm not probably going to see all the financial, you know, things that maybe a 20 year old or 25 year old might see if they start on this journey at the same time. Nevertheless, are we ever too old? Are we ever too tired to stop look, to stop looking for ways to engage our Lord in our life? And obviously, the question there's now, because what we're tapping there is the love we have for Christ and and it's so it's, it is great if we have that sort of financial effects of being financially prudent for decades upon decades. Great. I wish I had that mid 40s. But nevertheless, I think the question has to land is, why am I seeking to be a more excellent person in regards to my finances? Why? Because I want to put them before the Lord's feet. I want them to be subject to him as I as I wish to be subject to him, right? And so I think there's sort of a wider question of, why do we think about these virtues as valuable? And I think that the trick is especially in our society. Our society usually tells us, well, something's valuable if it sort of gives you all this kickback, right? If the all the consequences are good and and, yeah, I don't get me wrong. I want the good consequences of being financially wise. But at the end of the day, someone who you know is is nearing even the end of their life, and they know it, let's say they have some diagnosis or something that's Is it ever too late to seek to be virtuous, to be prudent, to me, to be more loving, to be more faithful, it's to be more temperate, to be more courageous. No, no. St Paul says, run the race so as to win, right? So even as you're approaching the finish line, every one of these moral muscles should be highly engaged to push us past that, that finish line. No, that's, that's a great encouragement. It's, it's one of those things too, where, you know, you mentioned the Our hope is to get to heaven. I mean, that's what we talk about here on our little Catholic money talk is if our goal is to, you know, if God created us to know Him, love Him, and serve Him in this life, so we could be happy with him forever in the next how do we do that with our finances, yeah, like the decisions we make with getting to heaven as our ultimate goal are going to look different than decisions someone's making where their ultimate goal is fame or worldly riches or, you know, it's just it's going to look different. And that doesn't mean you can't have nice things if you're trying to get to heaven, right? And it doesn't mean you have to, you know, be homeless and live on the street, and we could probably talk about that a different time, but, but engaging these virtues, and like you said, if you haven't done this, if you haven't tried to be prudent, if. Haven't tried to make decisions with hope being on the Lord, it could be hard, but once you start doing it, like any muscle we exercise, we get better at it, right? Yeah. And I think that, you know, the wonderful thing about a life lived in faith and a life lived in hope is it's and it goes back to First Corinthians 13, right? Faith, hope and love. And the greatest of these is love. I mean, one of the ways to understand that verse in the Catholic tradition is to say, well, what is going to remain in heaven? And St Thomas Aquinas, for example, does this. And and of those three theological virtues that really we live out of as Christians, as disciples of the Lord here on Earth, you know. And Paul says this in that in that chapter, he says, you know, when the perfect comes, the imperfect is going to pass away. So faith is about what is unseen, but when we're in heaven. I always tell my students, like, do we need faith? Like we need it here, it's an interesting question, but in a way, in a way shockingly, no, because we're face to face with God, right? We will be known as as you know. We will know as we are known. Says, First John So and same with hope. So faith and hope are really they're sort of these moral muscles, if you will, these these graces that are given to us to live here and now, to live in this sort of between the promises of Our Lord, right, these unabashed promises of eternal life with God, and yet, all the temporalities of the world that is to be in the world, but not of it. And so I think of especially faith and hope is sort of virtues that exist always within this this tension, in a way, because this life is full of tensions. It is, you know, and it's a call where yes, there are things that we're pursuing, there are things we don't see in faith, there are things that we don't possess in hope. And yet, faith and hope are already a beginning of eternal life, because in faith, we have given our yes to Christ, right. In hope, we have heard the promises of eternal life, and those become real, as Benedict was saying, they would become real and operative in how we think about our life here on Earth. So they're interesting virtues, faith and hope, precisely because they're virtues. And the medievals used to have this wonderful phrase in Latin of it perhaps translates as the pilgrim or the wayfarer. And so there are virtues that can be had by the saints in heaven, like love, and they can be had by us as well. But there are specific virtues of someone who is on the way, someone who is on the pilgrim way, and that's really describes our life here on Earth. Much to your point is it's to know God, to love God, to serve God, to make a gift of my life even better, and that includes my finances. And so it's we should expect that when we embrace this journey of faith and hope and we're seeking to live this way, we should expect that it's not necessarily a journey without tension. It doesn't just take everything away. It doesn't just solve all of our questions. You know, nevertheless, that's the journey we're called to, and it's the most exciting journey we can possibly be on. Yeah, the adventure of faith. Basically, yeah. So, well, I think, I think we're at time today, just thank you for for coming on. I will say at the seminary, you don't just have seminarians as students. Lay people take the course for Yeah, I guess whatever their degrees are all sorts of, all sorts of reasons, yeah, whether it be undergraduate or graduate, we do and so, I mean, I obviously love what I do, but Paul, I also love what you're doing. I mean, I think this is, and we've talked about this, you know, before the show and everything like that. But I think this is just such a need out there as Catholics. And I complain. I complain to my future priests as well as my lay students. I say, you know, too often when we end up talking about finances as Catholics, we're usually asking for money, you know, as a church and and that's fine. That needs to happen. Not knocking that, but there's an omission there. You know, there's an omission. And I think you're really and you're really ministry here, and your work here is really feeding that omission, stepping into that gap. And I think that's just a wonderful thing that you're doing. So absolutely fully, fully behind it, and glad to be part of it for today. So thanks for having me. Yeah, and we'll definitely have you back. And I would say to anyone listening, if you've got a question you'd want to ask. Dr Justin Anderson, there's a contact form in the podcast episode description. If you throw it in there, I will be sure to get Justin back and we can bombard him with some questions to see what his take is on them. But I hope this was helpful for you today. Thank you for listening. God bless Thank you for listening to Catholic money talk. I hope you join us again next time, please click Subscribe on your podcast app to get notified of new episodes. God bless you and have a great day. You. You.